Ritvik Devotee: Obviously we have to carry on as gurus...
ST: ...to initiate people...
Ritvik Devotee: ...as gurus in fact...
ST: ...in fact, right...
Ritvik Devotee: Which means to be vaco vegam manasa krodha vegam, jiva vegam...to be
completely in control...
ST: The theory is that because no one is...
Ritvik Devotee: No, that's not the theory either. The understanding is, is that before Prabhupada left, he asked eleven of his disciples to initiate as ritvik acaryas
on his behalf with the initiating disciples being Prabhupada's disciples hereafter, meaning from here on with no cessation of that.
ST: That's the idea that that's what he wanted from the start?
RD: Right. That that's what he wanted from the start. And that is what all the written evidence and recorded evidence of what Prabhupada said right before he left, that was the instruction he gave...
ST: But that contradicts the philosophy...
RD: The long range instruction is that you become guru when I order. And he never ordered, that people become guru and initiate disciples on their own behalf. He never ordered that.
ST: That makes a very ...
RD: No, because there is so much evidence in all of our scriptures that Krsna and the spiritual master can appear later on even after they depart.
ST: So how will you know if he has?
RD: Only the person will know. And that requires the sincerity of each disciple to not jump the gun. To wait for Prabhupada to appear and tell him, Now you initiate on your own behalf. Otherwise, his standing order is, you initiate on my behalf. Which is not a terrible position, it is very glorious to initiate on Prabhupada's behalf.
ST: It sounds certainly unprecedented. Philosophically it is not what Prabhupada taught, that after the spiritual master leaves people continue to become his disciples.
RD: But it is what he instructed.
ST: Then, I think there are different ways to interpret those instructions and they have been bantered about for quite a bit. The obvious way that they were interpreted was the way that it was played
out after he left which was in concert with the philosophy. And then because there were problems with that, then to conclude well, that may be the philosophy but he instructed otherwise and reconstrue what his instructions were, to draw that type of interpretation out of it, and then you go on
with the ritvik system, which is the system as you say, as you interpret it, was his instructions even though it contradicts the philosophy and everything else he taught in his books
about guru.
RD: Philosophy comes from the mouth of the acarya. That was what he enunciated for that
period, right then and there. That is the philosophy.
ST: But, no guru is...everything has to be supported by sastra. Everything guru says
has to be supported by sastra.
RD: Right. And the sastra is the acaryas
and what they have taught. And most of the acaryas in our line have, in that disciplic succession, its all siksa
links. There are almost no diksa links.
ST: There is diksa everywhere. That is the beginning of Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, one
has to accept diksa.
RD: Of course, you have to accept diksa from someone. But they are all accepting diksa
from people that weren't present, like Visvanatha from Narottama das Thakura.
ST: He didn't accept diksa from Narottama das Thakura. His diksa guru is Lokanatha Goswami.
RD: But it is not considered as important.
ST: Sure it is. That's why
he praises him in his songs. What do you mean diksa is not as important as siksa?
RD: It's not as important as siksa. Definitely not. Siksa
is what Prabhupada says, this is initiation. You see it in Prabhupada's writings over and over...
ST: You read Caitanya-caritamrta...
RD: ...initiation is when the disciple accepts my instruction. And then he says, the formality of the fire ceremony is simply a formality...
ST: The fire ceremony is another thing.
RD: ...The real initiation is the hari-nama, when you accept the holy name.
ST: Diksa guru and siksa
guru, one is not less than the other.
RD: That's right.
ST: But you are saying that diksa is less important than siksa. But
we are saying that diksa guru and siksa guru are equal manifestations of
the absolute truth, according to Caitanya-caritamrta.
RD: Yeah, OK, sure, guru is one.
ST: So then you cannot...are you trying to construe that diksa is less important than
siksa? And therefore, if so, what is the conclusion? Then why bother with the ritvik
system? Just accept siksa. Diksa is a necessity whether it is more important or less important, but it is a necessity, right?
RD: Right. Therefore we should accept diksa from Prabhupada.
ST: But how would you accept diksa from Prabhupada if Prabhupada is not here?
RD: By the use of a ritvik guru.
ST: And where is that system?
RD: Prabhupada enunciated it. He said this is what I want to have going on.
ST: Yeah, but that's debatable.
RD: No, it's not debatable. That is exactly what he said.
ST: I've heard all his tapes too.
RD: That's what he said. In fact, Tamala Krsna Goswami said that in 1980. He said we have done the greatest disservice to this movement by interpreting that Prabhupada appointed us as full acaryas
when in fact he appointed us as ritviks. He said that in 1980 in the Topanga Canyon talks.
ST: Well, I could talk to him today and he would probably say something different.
RD: In 1984 he published his book, Servant of the Servant, in which he said Prabhupada
appointed us as full guru acaryas and anyone who barks a criticism at the successor acaryas
it a thinly veiled criticism of Prabhupada himself. He wrote that in 1984 after in 1980 saying that Prabhupada never appointed successor acaryas, he only appointed us as ritviks
and we have done the great disservice to the movement.
ST: So you quote him in '84. You quote him in '80 and someone else quotes him in '84.
RD: Right. Which means that Prabhupada appointed...that's when you go back to the original thing that Prabhupada wrote, which is that we were appointed as ritviks.
What's his name, Ravindra Svarupa, in 1990 had a ritvik debate in San Diego...
ST: Wait a minute. You can't...
RD: ...he said you can't lead back. And he said, you are right, Prabhupada never appointed any body. It is becoming, like very much the accepted opinion. If you read what Prabhupada wrote, that's
what he said. He said, you all work here after as ritviks on my behalf. That is the point of Prabhupada's final instruction. He never contradicted it. There was a thing in November right
before he passed away...
ST: But you are telling yourself that...
RD: ...he had the opportunity to say I've appointed ...
ST: You are telling me yourself that Tamala Krsna Maharaja said one thing in 1980 and the opposite in 1984.
RD: That's right. So therefore...
ST: So I can choose which one I want?
RD: Well, that's what you have to examine too and go back to the original writing. And that's what Prabhupada said. There is no evidence that Prabhupada ever asked anybody to initiate disciples on their own behalf. And so since this situation is at best questionable...
ST: No, if that is so...
RD: ...why not take the path of humility? Why not just simply say, all right since we don't know let's take the more humble option. You can't go wrong with humility.
ST: I'll tell you why. It doesn't mean it's humility. First of all, humility means that you say you are not qualified.
If you say you are not qualified, then you cannot say someone else is not qualified if they say they are. Otherwise, then it is false humility.
Other than that what you are trying to do is say that Prabhupada didn't appoint anybody. If that is so, that doesn't mean that in his absence they will initiate on his behalf and that people will become Prabhupada's disciples as a result
of that which contradicts the philosophy that he taught. Therefore, all you can really say, if you say that he didn't appoint anybody, is that what his teaching was after he departed we should look for a self-effulgent acarya
who has the qualities of a qualified devotee to perform such service. Right?
All you can say is that he didn't appoint anybody. We know that he appointed people to initiate on his behalf. That was going on whether he made those statements or not. People were already doing that in the society for years. I chanted on beads for people in Prabhupada's presence. Names weren't picked by Prabhupada in most cases. So that was already going on.
RD: Right.
ST: But it's not the philosophy that it should go on afterwards. You are construing that it should be extended into the future. Where I would say, to be in concert with the philosophy, that the tapes are conclusive that he didn't appoint anybody, then I would wait for somebody to emerge who was qualified.
RD: It's not to say that no one ever will be qualified, that is true. Someone will emerge at some point, perhaps.
ST: Well, we would hope so. We would hope so. If he is such a great guru you would think that someone will emerge. Otherwise, people are going to wonder how great is this, because he himself used
to say you can judge a guru by his disciples. So I have no need to concoct some idea that you can initiate on behalf of Prabhupada as ritvik in his absence. The standard has always been
in the presence under the function of priest.
The will of the Vaisnava must be there in the background. Rather than concoct that, we should look for someone who is qualified and that question comes, where will you look? You follow me so far?
RD: Yes.
ST: Where will you look? Is there a geographical or corporate area that you are restricted to look within? Certainly not. If we were to follow that, one would think we've got to look inside the Gaudiya
Math, one of the branches. Of course Prabhupada wasn't a part of one of those branches. He split off himself. He did a separate thing really, it could be said. He didn't form a GBC with his Godbrothers, work cooperatively. He just went off. It seems like he tried to cooperate, but ultimately he
has accused them of not forming a GBC. He didn't form one either with his Godbrothers and work conjointly. So he emerged as a self-effulgent acarya. If the teaching is, therefore, he
didn't appoint anybody, therefore, in his absence, you have to look for somebody who is qualified and we have the right to look anywhere. Wherever Krsna consciousness is manifest. Right? So, it seems then, if you are pushing on this thing, this ritvik
thing, idea must be extended after Prabhupada's absence into the future for the reason that we haven't met anybody qualified. Therefore this must be continued in this way, and this is what is implicitly implied in Prabhupada's talking about ritviks
at that time, that until there is a qualified person that comes this should go on. Now, I don't agree with that, but even if you say that is the case, then the whole thing is over when there is a qualified person. There is no more need for that, correct? Am I reasoning correct?
RD: When a qualified person is there Prabhupada will instruct that person.
ST: Why Prabhupada? What about Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura? What about this one or that one?
RD: Right. That's possible.
ST: Or Krsna?
RD: Someone in the disciplic succession. Like Krsnadas Kaviraja was instructed to write the Caitanya-caritamrta
by Lord Nityananda. That can happen where a person comes from somewhere, what we call the past, you know, comes and actually tells us, Yeah, you are now qualified, do this. That definitely can happen. There is no denying that. That is in our scriptures.
ST: So until it does you still...you see what you have done is you've gone from taking a slight leap and said, Well, it hasn't happened so because it hasn't happened you just continue the ritvik
because in his presence people were initiating on his behalf and now we will just continue it until someone comes along. But someone could equally make the argument, No, you just extended something beyond it's limitations. What gives you the right to do that?
RD: Because that is what Prabhupada said to do and he never said to do otherwise.
ST: No, Prabhupada said to look for a self-effulgent acarya. You have heard that right?
RD: Of course, you always have to find a self-effulgent acarya. But right before he left
he said to initiate on my behalf as ritviks.
ST: He said what?
RD: Initiate on my behalf as ritviks.
ST: Yeah, in his presence.
RD: No, he said, hereafter. Hereafter means from now on.
ST: I think if you are not going to be open enough to discuss the fact that those tapes could be construed in that way but what they directly say is that they will initiate their own disciples. I have seen it so many times. You must have read it, "on my behalf". And then he says, they will be the disciples of my disciples, just see. You remember that part right?
RD: Yeah, I remember it, but that is out of context. If you read the whole context, it is not documented. I have studied those tapes and I know those tapes and the conversations and I agree with the other opinion, that he...
ST: Yes, but then you are agreeing with the opinion that goes against the siddhanta.
RD: No, I am agreeing with the opinion of what Prabhupada said.
ST: There are two opinions of what the tapes say. You are choosing one that goes against the siddhanta,
so then you have to establish, well, how could he contradict the siddhanta? The other way to look at it is, this is what he says, they will be the disciples of my disciples, just see
and so forth. And that is the siddhanta. Then obviously they have to be qualified. Not just that he said you do this, therefore you are qualified. It means that you do, you make yourself
qualified. Become Krsna conscious and then do. Instead, without being Krsna conscious enough to do, they tried to do. That is a more logical way to understand the tapes, rather than saying, well he has made some new adjustment here that is different than what he taught in his books and different
than any other Gaudiya institution understands and so forth. That seems more reasonable to me. But that aside, you are entitled to interpret it the other way and then you have to figure out how you can say it is the siddhanta.
All you can say is that guru said it and therefore it is siddhanta.
RD: No. the way to figure it out is that since you are giving me the right to decide my way and I give you the right to decide your way, which is the more effective way. And you know...you can't go wrong being too humble. You still have the same relationship with your younger men right? You are still their guide and teacher and they still respect you and revere you.
ST: No. It is not humility to change the siddhanta.
RD: You haven't established that it is changing the siddhanta. That is what I just said.
You say that I am interpreting the tape one way and you are interpreting the tape another way, then what I am saying is that when you are choosing between the two interpretations the way of humility has to be taken in because that's the primary qualification of a disciple, is that he is humble
and he always considers himself a menial servant of the spiritual master.
ST: It doesn't make any...
RD: ...have a vyasasana with Prabhupada on it and sit on the floor teaching. You have
the same relationship with those who are being taught, but you are teaching them in addition the paramount importance of humility.
ST: That is not lacking in humility to interpret the instructions according to the siddhanta.
It doesn't mean that all of a sudden you are a very highly qualified devotee to interpret it in that way. It is not implicit in my interpreting the tape that says, Oh, my disciples should make disciples and in this way the guru parampara
should go on. Now you initiate on my behalf when I am gone. Initiate and they will be your disciples. It is not lacking in humility for me to interpret the tape in that way. What would be lacking in humility was to say if I wasn't qualified to do that, to say that I was. It is not lacking in humility
to interpret it in that way. In fact, that is interpreting it according to the siddhanta. Someone might say, where is the humility in twisting the siddhanta to
say, We can make disciples for Prabhupada in Prabhupada's absence after his disappearance from the world because he said to. That is the siddhanta because he said it. Whatever the guru
says is siddhanta.
RD: That is right.
ST: That's wrong.
RD: Whatever the guru says is siddhanta.
ST: That's wrong. That's wrong, absolutely wrong. Guru says many things that aren't siddhanta,
because preaching and siddhanta are not always the same. That's the whole way of Gaudiya Math.
Sankaracarya, what did he do? He didn't preach the siddhanta. He is Lord
Siva. You don't think he knows the siddhanta? He didn't preach it. What do you find in Gopala-campu of
Jiva Goswami when he is emphasizing svakiya rasa? Is he preaching siddhanta
there? The siddhanta is parakiya bhava but
he is preaching the virtues of svakiya rasa. So people do this, acaryas
do this, this is the way of preaching.
Preaching and siddhanta are not always the same. By hook or by crook,
sell the book. I'll give it to you in a simple example. I may tell the person anything, perhaps, to get him to buy the book. And whether everything I am saying is siddhanta...the result
is by the fact...the result of doing that and bringing them into Krsna consciousness. Later on they may understand the siddhanta. So everything guru says, first of all, may not be siddhanta.
RD: That is a very good case in point. Prabhupada wrote one letter in which he said, "By hook or by crook, give him the book." But in the same collection of letters there are twenty letters where Prabhupada says, you should always be very straightforward and not fabricate anything and sell these books on their own merit. This is out numbered twenty to one.
ST: Right. So therefore, twenty to one it is out numbered. You are taking the one. You are trying to call me the opposition but you are taking the one. You are trying to say, Well, he said something
here that contradicts the siddhanta, but it is the siddhanta. Now, there
is a way to interpret the tapes that is in concert with the siddhanta. And all it is, is that when I leave, my disciples should qualify themselves to initiate and carry on the guru parampara.
Why is it unhumble to translate it like that?
RD: It's not.
ST: You are even saying the same thing, but when you want to force it there, that no, we should continue to initiate on Prabhupada's behalf in his absence, that contradicts his books, that contradicts
the teachings of all the acaryas, that the guru will continue to accept disciples after he has left the world. And for that matter, if you have the capacity, incommunicado, to communicate
with him, then you are a pretty qualified person. Because he has to give his sanction to the matter.
RD: I'm not taking on any disciples even as a ritvik. That's right. I haven't been given...
ST: H. Das has suddenly become extremely qualified...
RD: He was appointed. Prabhupada asked him to initiate as ritvik on his behalf. He was
one of those people.
ST: You're going to go back to that, never mind what he did in-between, he is qualified?
RD: Well, I forgive him for whatever he has done.
ST: Forgiveness is one thing but that doesn't make a man qualified because you forgive him for his mistakes.
RD: No. When a person comes back to devotion service they can pick up exactly where they left off.
ST: We can forgive Nixon but that doesn't mean we vote for him.
RD: Prabhupada appointed so many people to do so many things.
ST: Now, besides this...This is my point. First of all, on the basis of interpreting Prabhupada's statements in a particular way you maintain that something should go on which is contrary to what he taught and what every other Gaudiya Vaisnava institution teaches, that the guru will accept disciples in his absence, through his disciples.
This is Paramhamsa Yogananda philosophy. This is Christianity philosophy. This is what ruined the Sikh movement also. There are no qualified gurus, we will all become gurus. So you want to say that and the only support you can give
is that guru said it therefore it is siddhanta. So that is my one point. I can't agree with that. The second point is, even if that
is true, even if somehow it is true that Prabhupada said it and you could support it with all kinds scripture and you could get other sadhus to confirm it, which is the system, you can
show me from scripture how the guru can initiate in his absence through his disciples and this is Gaudiya siddhanta, this is what the Goswamis are
teaching, you show me that. Then you show me the understanding is confirmed by sadhus, advanced Vaisnavas, even if you could do that, which you can't do, even if you could, then the whole thing is irrelevant anyway because the principle is, as you have already explained, if someone is qualified,
then the system is not necessary. But you are importing this system based on he said it, so it must be...thinking he said it anyway...even though it contradicts the siddhanta, but he said it therefore it must be the siddhanta...I
can't demonstrate how it is but he said it, it must be...I can't confirm it with sastra or sadhu,
but he said it therefore it must be. I will say he said it, maybe he said it, but time and circumstances and so forth. Then even if you can do all that, if you can show me it is from sastra,
and you can confirm it with sadhu, right?
The whole thing becomes irrelevant as soon as there is a qualified person. And where will a qualified person come from? It is not limited to any geographical or corporate structure, to find that person from. Therefore what you are saying is that all of Siddhanta Sarasvati Thakura's disciples, for example, they are not qualified to initiate disciples. And I can show you in Prabhupada's books where he says they are.
And I can show you also in writing where Prabhupada sent one of his disciples who had been initiated by him, but after being initiated by him, had faith in Madhav Maharaja. Actually before he met Prabhupada he had faith in Madhav Maharaja who had very much gave opposition to Prabhupada.
RD: Yeah, Prabhupada didn't like him.
ST: He had faith in Madhav Maharaja but Prabhupada's campaign was very big and swept through and he ended up joining it. After that his sentiments continued to remain with Madhav Maharaja. So he asked
Prabhupada and Prabhupada said to go on, I release you, you take initiation from Madhav Maharaja. He became Madhav Maharaja's disciple. You know where the ISKCON devotees learned how to perform Vyasa-puja?
Prabhupada took his disciples to Sridhara Maharaja's Math on the day of his vyasa-puja. He said, "Today we will learn how to do vyasa-puja." That was
the first group of devotees who went to India. Prabhupada took them there and the vyasa-puja for Sridhara Maharaja was being performed and they learned about that ceremony. Previously
to that we hadn't performed a vyasa-puja for Prabhupada. There are innumerable ways. This is just a couple of things that have come to my mind, off the top
of my head, that Prabhupada demonstrated practically that a number of his Godbrothers were qualified gurus. He took sannyasa from Kesava Maharaja. He didn't take from an unqualified person.
He took it in his Math and Narayana Maharaja was the priest, who was his disciple and was already a sannyasi, was a disciple of Kesava Maharaja. So there is so much evidence that Prabhupada
accepted that a number of his Godbrothers were qualified gurus. Then in particular when Prabhupada left the world he was asked by Tamala Krsna Maharaja, and I was massaging his feet at the time, about a month before he left, that, Prabhupada if you leave the world how will we perform the funeral?
A pretty awkward question to ask but he had the nerve and decided to ask him. So Prabhupada said, For that you can ask Narayana Maharaja.
Side B
ST: ...the highest song of Narottama das Thakura. There he is praying to take shelter of Rupa Manjari. He was a disciple of Lokanatha Goswami. In another prayer he also says, Oh Lokanatha when will you take me by the hand and place me at the feet of Rupa Manjari? In this song you can find the highest truth of Gaudiya Vaisnavism.
Sarasvati Thakura wanted this song to be sung when he left the world. So he asked Sridhara Maharaja to sing this song. Sridhara Maharaja was there in Puri. Sridhara Maharaja began to sing. Then Kunjababa, who later became Tirtha Maharaja, he stopped Sridhara Maharaja and then he asked Puri Maharaja to sing, Bhaktipromod Puri Maharaja, old Puri Maharaja, not Vishakapatnam Puri Maharaja. And he had a sweet voice. Sridhara Maharaja didn't have the best singing voice. So Puri Maharaja began to sing, and Sarasvati Thakura stopped him personally. He said,
No, I am not interested in this sweet voice I want Sridhara Maharaja to sing. And Puri Maharaja, at that time, he said, At that time I could understand Sarasvati Thakura has given transmission to Sridhara Maharaja, the Rupanuga sampradaya
realization has been put in his heart. He has acknowledged before all of us Sridhara Maharaja has realized the conclusions of Rupanuga
bhakti, the line of Sri Rupa. He has got admittance to there. Because Guru Maharaja wanted someone with realization to sing the song. And Puri Maharaja's position became so high by saying
that himself. Do you understand? At one point he was told, you don't sing because the implication was that you don't have the realization I want to hear through this song. Sridhara Maharaja will sing. He bowed to Sridhara Maharaja and wrote about it and his position has become so high now as a
result of it. He is a real param Vaisnava, Puri Maharaja. That is how he took it. So these things are there in history and it is not...the whole story is that Sarasvati Thakura asked
him to go to the West. He refused to go.
RD: What is that?
ST: It's part of the story. If you hear Sridhara Maharaja tell the story and you know how Vaisnavism works, then when we give that type of interpretation, that is not just an interpretation but it is an extent of our Vaisnavism coming out. Instead of our interpretation of how Vaisnavism works. Bhaktisiddhanta asked Sridhara Maharaja to go to the West. You probably know that. But he refused to go. So, they say he is a nonsense and Prabhupada, he went. This just shows what kind of Vaisnava we are, that we can make that type of interpretation. When you hear it from Sridhara Maharaja you can understand, Oh, yes, that's probably how Vaisnavas deal and disciples deal with their guru. Yes, that makes more sense.
RD: What happened?
ST: Sarasvati Thakura asked him, I want Sridhara Maharaja to go to the West. He chose him personally. And Sridhara Maharaja said, Guru Maharaja, I am reluctant to go for three reasons.
One, because I can't so well understand the intonation of their English speaking. That is a little difficult for me. Others are better qualified to speaking English. He said,
Also it has never been my nature to mix so much with the public, the general mass of people. You know I come from brahman
family, and all these things. So these are my conditionings. I list first my disqualifications. And
thirdly, I want to take advantage of every moment, opportunity I have, to have your personal association and stay in the background and hear personally from you. But if it is your order I must go. And Sarasvati Thakura said, You stay.
He liked the third reason. Do you understand? He liked that. You know, it is one thing our Prabhupada went out in separation and did and it is glorious. The other side is also glorious. It is vipralamba
and sambhoga. Both things are there.
They are both glorious. He wanted that and he took advantage of that. Later Sarasvati Thakura said, I had originally chosen Sridhara Maharaja to go because I knew he could not be converted. Later, obviously he chose our Prabhupada to
go. That is obvious. It doesn't mean that everybody else is disqualified. The Lord works in wonderful ways. Guru parampara works in
wonderful ways. It is not that Bhaktisiddhanda Sarasvati Thakura knew one day that Abhaya Caran das he is going to go and do all this. Prabhupada didn't know everything, not omniscient. Krsna knows. And maybe Krsna doesn't know Himself. That is what Caitanya Mahaprabhu avatara
is all about.
Krsna doesn't even know Himself fully. You can find references in the Folio where Prabhupada says this. He is trying to experience Himself as Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.
So this is our analysis. This is why we go on in the way we are going on here. And we publish our magazine and it is not necessarily different from the other magazine. And you bring any of these men to me and have this kind of talk, they will be...I have a different relationship...You will actually be a little more respectful to me because I am older spiritually than you and so on. H.D. will be a little more so, you know. And if I have any good standing really it comes from how I dealt with Sridhara Maharaja and what I understood there. So we are carrying on in that way. It is very happy and charming and endearing. And then I watched the same thing...I watched another thing happen. I watched Sridhara Maharaja leave and I am seeing some parallels to what happened after Prabhupada left. And it is like history repeating itself in so many ways. It is very enlightening. So all I can recommend to you is there is a broader perspective. You came to this thing for the truth and you have got it from certain angles repeatedly. And there are other angles to experience it from. And it is well worth doing it. I did that and I can only speak of the virtues of that. How it has helped me. People criticize me for leaving ISKCON. I tell you if I had to do it again, I would have left before. Knowing what I learned leaving, I'm telling you. Leaving I learned more than I learned the whole time I was in. I thought that I didn't learn anything when I was in. I didn't realize anything, by Prabhupada's grace. And it is evident that [in the opinion of others] "outside of Prabhupada's grace" that I am realizing something now.
Siksa-guru. Sung throughout the scripture...you yourself were sayings that siksa-guru
is actually more important that diksa. So we took Sridhara Maharaja as siksa-guru
under the...and Prabhupada opened the door for that. I never would have gone there. I was a very orthodox follower. And I have a little rebellious side to me, which makes me a little bit of a maverick and so forth, but I have another side too. I was very submissive to Prabhupada. I wasn't as submissive
to his GBC, but part of that was not planned. I didn't even know what the GBC meant for years. When I was sent to Australia in 1973 to teach book distribution and from there I was invited to India by Prabhupada to come for his festival. When I was
there Karandhara blooped. Karandhara was the GBC. The Los Angeles temples was the only temple really that I had experience. If I had gone...I had gone to New York, gone to Chicago, San Francisco, a few places, but that was my whole training and everything. I didn't know
so much what the GBC meant. The average brahmacari or devotee didn't know what was going on...like it is today. They are just into Krsna consciousness. What is
going on in all those meetings, smoke filled with incense, meetings, we didn't know what was going on. And when I went to India that year in 1974, I was just fired up to preach and distribute books. That is all I thought about. And I was getting reciprocation from Prabhupada. So I thought let
me...I had a plan that came into my mind, let me go to Chicago where they have a legal airport, the only legal airport in the country. And I will set up a base there and I will invite leading devotees from different temples to come and I can train them and then they will go back to their temples.
This was my idea. And I told it to Prabhupada and he said, Yes, very nice, and you do that and come back every year to Mayapur and spend the month with me. So then I went. And I just started doing that. A few devotees came from three or four temples and they stayed. Ramesvara was helping to manage.
He was the organizer. So we were planning together. Then they came and stayed for one month and then they were supposed to go back to their temples. Three of them came to me and they said, Maharaja...I wasn't a Maharaja at that time. I was just a brahmacari.
They said, you know the plan of this party is that, you know, we are supposed to go back to our temples after one month and new people are supposed to come in. And I said, Yeah, that's the plan. And they said, Well we were thinking that maybe you needed a couple of men as part of your staff and
the others can come and go back. It was really loving. It was really like...we had a really meaningful, loving relationship. We lived together in the same room. We read in the car on the way to the airport. We read on the way back. We stayed back two days a week and went to every arati
and read from one of Prabhupada's books for an hour, one after the other, first Nectar of Devotion, then arati, we chant four rounds, we read...That is what we did. That is how we lived
for a month. We became very close to one another. That is how my party then started. What was the GBC? What did that have to do with anything? I wasn't a guest. I just didn't think about it and it was just going on. It went for one year, from 1974 to 1975. And Prabhupada
was pleased. I started corresponding with Prabhupada personally and he was writing me letters and saying nice things. Then I went to Mayapur. I got to Mayapur. I was still a brahmacari. The
GBC calls me in. And they say, So we want to know, you are traveling here and there and everywhere and...we were raising lots of money and I was sending it all to the BBT...and so they said, Who is your GBC? I had never even
thought about it. I thought, What the heck is that? I said, Well, Karandhara was my GBC and he blooped. That was as far back as I could think. I wasn't being facetious or anything like that. And they saw that this guy is naive. That is what they thought. Then I got a little
bit smart too at the same time while I was standing there because they said, Well, if you had to pick a GBC then which one would you pick? Then I looked around and I thought, These guys want me on their party is what they want. Each one wants me in their zone. That's what came to my mind. Oh,
I'm not so naive. And I said, Well, I'll pick this one. I picked one that I thought would be really low key because the other guys wanted to control me or something like that. And I thought, Maybe I was wrong about something like that. I walked out of the meeting. And then they went, as I knew
they would, to Prabhupada with their resolutions. And they would read their resolutions and Prabhupada would say, this is no good, this is no good, this is good, adjust this one. And then they came to me. And Prabhupada said, What has he done? And they said, Well, Prabhupada, he doesn't have a
GBC and he is going all over the countryside from airport to airport, flying, spending money on plane trips. Prabhupada cut him off and he said, He is selling my books. He does not need a GBC. I wasn't there I didn't know that. But three of them, three
of the more humble ones, three grhastha men, they came to me and they told me, Prabhupada said this about you. We are sorry that we brought you in and we gave you the 3-D like that. Prabhupada said you don't need a GBC. And I thought, Oh, God. It's
not like that. I probably do need a GBC. And that year Prabhupada gave me sannyasa against the GBC resolutions which they had passed, which
he had ratified, which said, you have to get recommended by a GBC and wait for one year. One month later Prabhupada gave me sannyasa. And then he had a moratorium
on sannyasa for two years. So I was very submissive to Prabhupada. That is why I did what I did, selling those books. It wasn't like I was a used car salesman in my previous life or something
like that. I was a real...well no one wants to know what I was like but I wasn't a very capable or qualified person. No education, anything, no job. Somehow he used me in that way and I was very submissive to Prabhupada. And I also had this other side, like of a maverick. And when Prabhupada left
I was very submissive to the GBC too. I tried to support that in every way. But it got hard, you know. I was used to going out and giving somebody a book and saying, You read this and you go to any one of these addresses in this book. I would feel confident. I would say
that to everyone but that's how I felt. And you go anywhere, to any one of these addresses, and you are going to get the living thing that is in this book, the teachings. And I remember I was in San Francisco and I was selling books across the bridge in Sausalito there, at just the point. And
I cried. I gave someone a book and I started crying. And they looked at me like, what's wrong with this guy. I took the book back and I realized that I don't feel like this any more.
I give them this book and they are going to go to B. S.'s zone, they are going to go to H. D.'s zone, they are going to go here and they are not going to get...this is not like this any more. And I was like...I had already given up all managerial responsibilities for different temples that I had obtained and I was just traveling and preaching because I didn't want to be affiliated with any particular temple, a particular guru. I couldn't even sell the books. They have all these addresses here. And then I went to Sridhara Maharaja. And this has come from that. It hasn't been easy, you know. I left ISKCON with nothing but a bad reputation based on nothing wrong. I hadn't done anything wrong. I did the right thing and I had a bad reputation. There are some guys in there that could give you . . . you know, that's it. What they said, that's it. That's him now. He might have been this yesterday, but he is this now. You know how it was. That was it, across the board.
I was blackballed from all the temples by one phone call from the L.A. GBC. Not one, but he was like a mystic yogi. He could make hundreds of phone calls, but
look like he was making one or something. Anyway, we left with nothing but a bad reputation practically. And then I made some disciples. Practically every disciple here I made myself personally a devotee. Now it is changing a little bit because through our magazine people are coming and they meet
my disciples here and there. I don't have a lot of disciples. Maybe I have 50 disciples here and between here and India. Some of them are not active in the mission because they have work to do or whatever, family or something like that. But we went off in small way, tried our best and we feel
that we follow the philosophy. We take it from Sridhara Maharaja and understand it. I had a great opportunity. Look here is a pure devotee, here is a pure devotee, and they are different and they are one. This is fascinating. So I could understand Prabhupada said things according to time and circumstance.
Sridhara Maharaja saying this way according to time and circumstance. And I am in another time and circumstance. I can draw from Prabhupada how he applied a certain circumstance. I can see how Sridhara Maharaja did and I come up with a synthesis, a third idea based on scripture. What they have
done and you become like your own...like a grown up. It is one thing when you follow the father as a child and it is very cute and everyone likes it. You put on the father's coat even though it is too big, you put on his shoes...isn't it cute, he is following his dad. But if that goes on your
whole life then you are a nut. The father helps you get up and grow up and add to the business, maybe bring in new produce, further market it or whatever it is. So I write books. This is mostly what I do. I'm writing our magazine, publishing it. I have two books at the printer's now. I'm writing
one or two books and so forth. We try to distribute them conventionally. We are forming a publishing company because we don't have a army of people who go out to the airport and sell books. So we have to do it a different way. That doesn't mean that he's not distributing any books. Why isn't he
out there? You know. Things are different. I'm 46 years old now. I can write books. And Prabhupada wanted that. He wanted books written within the cultural context that we live and have grown up in, to represent Krsna consciousness so that it integrates with our own culture...I'm telling you it
will be that much more relevant. It will be as relevant to present needs as Prabhupada's books have been if you can do it right. If you can bring analogies...If you can bring the analogy the camel chews the thorns, OK, what does that mean? You have to explain the analogy. That is an analogy from
the Bhagavatam and it is based on things found in India. If we say it in India then anybody immediately clicks with it. There is nothing wrong with giving those analogies. In fact it
is interesting to find out what goes on in other cultures for people in America. But when you can make an analogy right from this culture, and you know this, you are a preacher, then it just immediately hits homes and the point goes so much deeper. When you can draw those analogies, that means
you have some realization of the thing.
We need real preaching to the people in a relevant way, the people themselves without all this, it has to be like this, these are the rules. They will see that this is really something, this is alive. I'm getting nourishment from this. I come forward to take it and take it up and learn it. That is what is required. Then there has to be a controlled person. You have to be...have some purity and so forth. And that there is some backing from higher Vaisnavas. What more can you ask then? Go with it. That to me is encouraging. The other magazine is not encouraging.
This came up in Gaudiya Math. I was saying before when Sarasvati Thakura left they all had the different opinion of what should go on. One time Sridhara Maharaja told...this was before this whole theory came out...he said one sannyasi
got up in one meeting...they had so many meetings, you can imagine...he said, none of us here is as qualified as Guru Maharaja, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, no man will say, no man will say for sure. And no man thought like that. He said, Our Guru Maharaja is a ray of Visnu. No one can be
as qualified as him amongst us. Even the most qualified amongst us doesn't compare a fig to him. Therefore, now that he is gone no one is qualified to fill his shoes. This was a big sannyasi
preacher. He said, therefore I think what we should do, that we shall go on in his name and we shall make disciples on his behalf because he is nitya-siddha. What are we? But on his behalf
we will make disciples. And in this way the mission will go on. So he has intimidated them all, in one sense. No one is qualified. No one will say yes I am qualified. Then they show their lack of qualification. So one devotee said to Sridhara Maharaja, he said, can you say anything about this?
Doesn't sound quite right to me but what am I going to say, that I am more qualified? Can you say anything? And he said, I can say something.
And then Sridhara Maharaja said in the assembly, Such-as-such Swami has spoken and everyone knows his faith in Guru Maharaja. No one can doubt that for a moment. Neither his own qualification as preacher and still he is saying this further showing his qualification, a true Vaisnava, a disciple of our Guru Maharaja. He said, So all these things are there. We must admit and praise him, but above your idea, I have this to say, we are not Sikhs. Then everyone said, Yes, that's right.
The Sikhs they said, no more gurus after Gaura Govind Singh, let's go on. And everything just deteriorated. Then they realized that it is a nice sentiment but it is not a solution to the problem. So I choose mahajano yena gatah sa
panthah,I follow Sridhara Maharaja. I don't want to follow H. D. on this point. Other things I may follow him on. Y. D., I will also not
follow. G. K....I know so many things about these men on another level. You may not know them also. They are my Godbrothers. So I know.
I had the choice. And you have the choice. This is the point I am making to you also. You have the choice as well. Don't take the choice that is not there for you. This is your heritage. This is your family. Sridhara Maharaja came for
you as much as for me. As much as Prabhupada came for you, Sridhara Maharaja came in disciplic succession. You want to look for a self-effulgent acarya.
When the sun of Prabhupada set, the moon of Sridhara Maharaja rose and nobody...he didn't do anything to attract any attention whatsoever. He didn't move a muscle to attract anybody. Prabhupada gestured in that direction. He was just sitting there chanting Hare Krsna, penetrating the Bhagavatam,
dealing with his disciples in a small way as was his preference with deep realizations. And they starting coming one after another. And he tried to help. Meanwhile they are all over there shining the light on themselves or having this one shine the light on me, blow my picture up bigger, you know,
more buttons is what we need. More posters is what we need. Get bumper stickers. This guru is the best guru, you know. Guru, Guru on the wall, who is the best of them all? Right? This is what was going on. And Sridhara Maharaja is sitting there. And I was sitting there hearing the talk in Maypur.
I used to go. I told you, Prabhupada told me every year come to Mayapur. And that was my life. I would see Prabhupada too when he would come to America sometimes. But in Mayapur I would spend the whole month with him and hear his lectures. And I lived for that in Mayapur, to hear his lecture.
And all I could remember was, Now he is gone and I am hearing these talks and it is different. Where is the philosophy? And meanwhile Sridhara Maharaja is over there, you know, radha-bhagavata katha.
And I was hearing. I was a faithful man. I was trying to follow the GBC. But people were going over there and saying, he has some far out things to say, you know, really deep stuff. And I thought, I'm going over there. Ultimately, I'm going over there. Then I heard it. When
I first read Sri Guru and His Grace I was going through these things in my mind, the book came to me. I knew Sudhira Goswami had left ISKCON. And I knew he didn't
...the world wasn't flat as they taught. You don't just go off the end. I don't know, the guy's publishing books, now that takes something, you know. And I saw the book here and there and I thought, Why don't I read that? I read Prabhupada's books. I follow Prabhupada books. And they were teaching
Sridhara Maharaja is against ISKCON and so many things. But I never wanted to criticize, but I thought there must be something right in what they are saying. You know, these guys are my senior Godbrothers. But I saw their own character more and more, which is a product of
whatever...a lot of things. Then I thought, I'm going to read that book. I read the book in this frame of mind. Let me read this book and find out what is wrong with it. I know he's not a Mayavadi, he couldn't be. Or a sahajiya.
He is a strict follower of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura. There must be something wrong there. Let me read it. And I was used to being able to turn any body's head around in any airport, and most devotees head's around. I was a pretty good preacher. I was accustomed to that. So I thought,
let me look at it practically and see what is wrong here. I read one chapter, two chapters, and certain things in my heart that I had thought about, they were being confirmed in there, about issues of the day, topic of the hour. And I thought, this is endearing. I read a little further and it
wasn't a book of information. In that book I was being asked to surrender more, on a deeper level. I got halfway through the book, I started crying. And I couldn't put the book down. I finished the book and all I think was, Navadvipa, Navadvipa, there. Then I turned and the first thing I did,
I called Sudhira Goswami Maharaja. I said, you know I read the book Sri Guru and His Grace. And he said, What did you think? And I said, Nobody could affect me like that but Prabhupada,
my guru. And he said, Well if the incarnation of book distribution likes our book it must be good. Then we talked. And I said, What do I do now? And he said, You should stay in ISKCON and circulate around quietly because everybody respects you. You are not in a managerial
position. You are just a preacher. And we thought, this is so nice, surely everybody is just going to realize this and everything is going to be fine. It's going to happen any minute. It is so obvious. But people had...by that time they were deeply absorbed. On top of that, by this time many had
been offending Sridhara Maharaja. So that has greater impact on their situation to an extreme. To offend such a person, from the vyasasana and they were offending the guru parampara
really. So anyway, I circulated a little bit and then I was caught preaching about Sridhara Maharaja and was excommunicated, so to speak. But I was so much charmed by him. I thought, no one could turn my head around like this except Prabhupada. And then I realized that Prabhupada...guru is one.
He is not limited to a particular form or shape. He is coming in a new energy. It is like the moon...the full moon has risen after the setting of the sun of Prabhupada. Soothing in a quiet way, that was his style. But that it was light giving and soothing, no question about that. We published
some things about this history. Paramadvaiti Maharaja has published a book. Have you seen it? Search for Purity. His particular style is a little irritating, but English is not his first
language either. He has published all the different tape recorded discussions between Sridhara Maharaja and the GBC. I have them all on tape. And he has published it all in a book, in different letters and so forth. And you see the history very differently. The real history than what you might
have been told or thought. You know, certain people that we have rejected as being unqualified to lead, many people have imbibed their conceptions about things at the same time and are carrying on, going on with them.
Like about Sridhara Maharaja for example. And they have rejected R. Swami and B. Swami. But the only impression they have of Sridhara Maharaja, for example, is what they got from them and they are carrying on with that. So we are always trying to give people the opportunity to consider that something else came for them, another thing came for them after Prabhupada left. Prabhupada made an arrangement. Krsna made an arrangement and we don't have to patch it together with glue or stretch it to make it work.